Curse

Tatile · Sep 02, 2008, 07:31 AM // 07:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

how do you all know that the players you pug-ged with were female players or male palyers ?? did you ask all of them eveytime you get into a pug group?

I was helping a guy through a mission (he then became a real pain after that, but niether here nor there) and he asked a couple of questions about the game and such. After a bit he said "Are you a girl?", I of course replied "Yes, why?". His response was that I'm nice, therefore I must be a girl.

o.O

I personally don't care for finding out a person's gender and usually refer to them by character name and 'they' until they feel like correcting me or something. This doesn't happen often as my play style isn't terribly sociable.

Rocky Raccoon · Sep 02, 2008, 02:10 PM // 14:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

The biggest problem with this is that there really is this sort of segregation. Can you name a good female warrior player? Now, can you name a good female monk? How about 5 monks? Almost every girl playing above average level is playing a support class.

Add to the fact there are a lot less successful girls in GW, and that people pay more attention to them so the ones that are bad really stand out, and you get the impression that they're bad in general. The ratio of successful to unsuccessful probably isn't that different (there's an ocean of terrible male players, after all), but as I said, they stand out more.

Not to mention how much guild drama can result (we had a core monk refuse to play in the Celestial Tourney because she didn't think the new cape looked nice) - a stereotype perhaps, but a recognizable trend. There are top-tier guilds that don't allow girls because they don't want to risk having to deal with that kind of garbage.

Talk about sexist. First of all, how do you know who is male or female unless they let it be known? Secondly, I would say most of the drama in game is most likely male generated, as they are a majority of the game population.

Another Felldspar · Sep 02, 2008, 04:59 PM // 16:59

The marketing question should fall back to whether the game is marketing to girls or to women. Far too often we see the "girl gamers" tag when really what they are talking about is adult females. Pink kittens are not the best way to rope in adult females.

As a strong generalization most women have less time for gaming than men. Women are still more involved with housework, child care (including homework help), food preparation, etc. Taking time out for games is difficult but worth it -- all people need to play. Games like Guild Wars that allow people to play for an hour or two at a time and still be successful should really tout that to women. Keeping in mind the real differences between the lives of adult males and adult females is the only way that marketers will be able to find what actually works in selling to women.

And if designers want to sell specifically to women they need to stop designing crap. We aren't that stupid.

Jenn · Sep 02, 2008, 06:47 PM // 18:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

Being unbiased might be great to talk about, but it's impractical and frankly fails to reflect reality.

Burst, first of all, I read your whole discussion (not just this post), so I'm basing what I say next upon your recent posts in this thread. I just chose this quote because I'm going to use it to illustrate something. To start off, though, I'd like to say that I agree in large part with the basis of your argument (heuristics).

I'm willing to admit that I believe you are right on a pratical level, but on a moral level, it is something that does disappoint me. I don't mean you in particular, but society as a whole. When you think about it, our judgments, prejudices, stereotypes and sometimes ignorance can do us more harm than good. There are different severities of letting experiences guide your thoughts/actions.

My example comes from the discussion in this thread; girl gamers are bad because a few people who have played with them have had bad experiences. I'd consider that a small "infraction" of tolerance from in a human being; games are not critical to one's life. This opinion that some men have comes from their personal experience, and they use heuristics to generalize. Fine - I do believe everyone does it. I don't have to like it, but I am not innocent either.

To conclude my example, I want to bring up words like "sexist" or "racist" or "homophobic." Those are all words we are familiar with, and all know what they mean. I will not call you or most other men in this game "sexist." But what if I drew this conclusion based on personal experiences: black males (and women) are annoying, loud, agressive, unintelligent, primitive humans. How many people do you think would jump to the conclusion that I am a racist? I hate to go in this direction, but it is something I am familiar with. In my life I have not a black person that I've even come close to liking, let alone want to befriend. That's not to say that I think all white males are innocent and pleasant - I don't - but people won't make themselves aware that I think this as well. And that's not to say that I'm even racist; I think racism is a terrible thing, and so pitifully ignorant, and I am sad for all sorts of people who had to suffer because of racism, sexism, homophobia, etc.
I would consider this to be a severe example of heuristics.

So where do we draw the line between stereotypes/heuristics and sexism or racism? I believe there is a very slippery slope we need to be careful with, and I think excusing males in gaming is headed in that direction. With how little life experience young males have, and how much time of it is spent with games, they need to be aware, careful and learn from good examples that there is a difference between gaming and reality, and they need to be able to respect women (and men).

Numa Pompilius · Sep 03, 2008, 08:50 AM // 08:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by unkleanone

Personally I'm sick of people giving a crap if girls play games or not. It's really getting to be an old subject. I'm tired of hearing about it.

IMO many such articles are really just an excuse to show photos of pretty young girls.

Avarre · Sep 03, 2008, 08:58 AM // 08:58

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Originally Posted by Risky Ranger

Talk about sexist.

Which part? The paragraph that was factual, the paragraph where I talked about common perceptions, or the paragraph where I mentioned examples and responses? Talk about knee-jerk reactions and poor reading.

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First of all, how do you know who is male or female unless they let it be known?

Vent.

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Secondly, I would say most of the drama in game is most likely male generated, as they are a majority of the game population.

So why don't you give me some examples from the competitive scene, which I'm referencing? Secondly, I'm talking about proportion, not overall quantity.

DreamRunner · Sep 03, 2008, 11:05 AM // 11:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illfated Fat

I'm willing to admit that I believe you are right on a pratical level, but on a moral level, it is something that does disappoint me. I don't mean you in particular, but society as a whole. When you think about it, our judgments, prejudices, stereotypes and sometimes ignorance can do us more harm than good. There are different severities of letting experiences guide your thoughts/actions.

My example comes from the discussion in this thread; girl gamers are bad because a few people who have played with them have had bad experiences. I'd consider that a small "infraction" of tolerance from in a human being; games are not critical to one's life. This opinion that some men have comes from their personal experience, and they use heuristics to generalize. Fine - I do believe everyone does it. I don't have to like it, but I am not innocent either.

To conclude my example, I want to bring up words like "sexist" or "racist" or "homophobic." Those are all words we are familiar with, and all know what they mean. I will not call you or most other men in this game "sexist." But what if I drew this conclusion based on personal experiences: black males (and women) are annoying, loud, agressive, unintelligent, primitive humans. How many people do you think would jump to the conclusion that I am a racist? I hate to go in this direction, but it is something I am familiar with. In my life I have not a black person that I've even come close to liking, let alone want to befriend. That's not to say that I think all white males are innocent and pleasant - I don't - but people won't make themselves aware that I think this as well. And that's not to say that I'm even racist; I think racism is a terrible thing, and so pitifully ignorant, and I am sad for all sorts of people who had to suffer because of racism, sexism, homophobia, etc.
I would consider this to be a severe example of heuristics.

So where do we draw the line between stereotypes/heuristics and sexism or racism? I believe there is a very slippery slope we need to be careful with, and I think excusing males in gaming is headed in that direction. With how little life experience young males have, and how much time of it is spent with games, they need to be aware, careful and learn from good examples that there is a difference between gaming and reality, and they need to be able to respect women (and men).

We are all biased against everything. Even morals and ethics which are based on a persons society and culture. But stereotypes, generalizations are always going to be with us, because from the fact that there is so much descriptive information about people that a single person can't take it all in.

Its easier to get some structure of the huge amount of mass of people into groups so we can understand the large population of 6 billion people as a whole. We love structure, we structure people into groups, we do it everywhere we go and we are even told to structure our thoughts at an early age in school so we can live a structural way of life.

With racism and sexism and all that, its interesting that people actually don't see how much of it is actually around us. Sexism is the most clouded because we take it as a joke or something that doesn't really bother us and why should we? Society loves to chug-along as if everything is okay, and not worry about a thing because worrying means something is wrong and we hate problems. Problems needs to be fixed and if something isn't fixed then its more to worry about and how many people want to worry about more stuff than they have on our ordinary life? My point is that even if people are sexist, they don't see as being like that(men and women). They see it as ordinary conduct.

DarkNecrid · Sep 03, 2008, 05:28 PM // 17:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Risky Ranger

Talk about sexist.

You're kidding right?

Pretty much every single girl (I say pretty much because I know (as in watch) a lot of them, and since they are in top guilds they are fairly well known but who knows theres always that 1 you miss.) in a top guild plays a support class. Generally Monk, Ritualist, or Mesmer.

If stating facts (he isn't kidding when he says pretty much every good (as in top level) girl is support classes) = sexism, then call me a sexist all you want. Girls have breasts. Am I magically a sexist now, for stating facts about them? It's a pretty well known fact easily 99% of the top skill girls in the competitive side are support classes.

Second off, he is right about the top guilds not allowing girls, because drama can (and does) result more, and Avarre isn't talking about LOL EUROS WON THE MAT or something drama that you get from guys, but girl playing a guy on the team for a fool (joke e-relationship or something equally dumb, basically being a horrible person in general, getting hopes up in some way etc. Lying.), then guy gets back at her and talks about their drab sex life and posts nudes, girl ruins his life to get back at him type of drama. And yes this has happened, I've seen it happen like 4 times already.

And finally, he is right because it is human nature to remember the bad things more than the good because it stands out more. You're more likely to remember a bad player and something that player did a lot more than you will remember a good player or a good play (unless if its famous in the community like a certain Meteor Shower in a certain tournament game.).

What I mean to say is, how dare you state facts about the competitive community and it's female population, Avarre. You rotten sexist. Jeez.

He never once said girls couldn't be a good warrior, or a good dervish, or a good non-support class, nor did he say all women suck. He simply said that there ISN'T any top level good female warriors, etc. Or at least not near as close as the over whelming majority of female support classes. If he had said they can't be good warriors, or that all women suck at the game, then that would be sexism.

Taurucis · Sep 03, 2008, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

Pretty much every single girl (I say pretty much because I know (as in watch) a lot of them, and since they are in top guilds they are fairly well known but who knows theres always that 1 you miss.) in a top guild plays a support class. Generally Monk, Ritualist, or Mesmer.

Who knows, they might be excellent warriors/dervishes/assassins as well - but perhaps they're even better at Monk/rit/mes or whatevevr. They might have reasons for playing support classes - personal preference, or higher skill, or maybe in rare cases the (male) guild leader forces them into the role.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

If stating facts (he isn't kidding when he says pretty much every good (as in top level) girl is support classes) = sexism, then call me a sexist all you want. Girls have breasts. Am I magically a sexist now, for stating facts about them? It's a pretty well known fact easily 99% of the top skill girls in the competitive side are support classes.

Guys have breasts too, they're just not as obvious. ^^

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

Second off, he is right about the top guilds not allowing girls, because drama can (and does) result more, and Avarre isn't talking about LOL EUROS WON THE MAT or something drama that you get from guys, but girl playing a guy on the team for a fool (joke e-relationship or something equally dumb, basically being a horrible person in general, getting hopes up in some way etc. Lying.), then guy gets back at her and talks about their drab sex life and posts nudes, girl ruins his life to get back at him type of drama. And yes this has happened, I've seen it happen like 4 times already.

Not every girl is like that, and the top guilds not allowing girls is sexist.

Usually there is a guy involved in the drama, it's just shrugged off because "boys will be boys." But when the girl retaliates it's "Oh no! She's causing drama! KICK KICK KICK!"

Most of the time, when interpersonal arguments arise, it is usually the girls who are blamed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

And finally, he is right because it is human nature to remember the bad things more than the good because it stands out more. You're more likely to remember a bad player and something that player did a lot more than you will remember a good player or a good play (unless if its famous in the community like a certain Meteor Shower in a certain tournament game.).

Human nature is a bad thing, it needs to be destroyed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

What I mean to say is, how dare you state facts about the competitive community and it's female population, Avarre. You rotten sexist. Jeez.

Both the male and female population of GW have a role in the sexism present on Guild Wars - the males for their "girls should play support roles, girls only bring drama, girls are bad at gaming, etc" mentality, and females for their "can I get into a relationship with my guild leader, did you hear what that guy said about another guy, I think I should only play this class because they're pretty even though I suck at it..."

Basically, if the majority of people bothered to think about the horrible stereotype they give their gender, a lot of stuff would be fixed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

He never once said girls couldn't be a good warrior, or a good dervish, or a good non-support class, nor did he say all women suck. He simply said that there ISN'T any top level good female warriors, etc. Or at least not near as close as the over whelming majority of female support classes. If he had said they can't be good warriors, or that all women suck at the game, then that would be sexism.

TBH, I find that most of the "good" warriors I meet in PvE are women. I think it's because PvE is generally more relaxing, takes less time, and is less stressful. It's less competitive, and women are naturally more on the cooperative side.

Using only PvP as a database doesn't get good examples, because I think it is fairly true that there are more "Mostly PvE" players than "Mostly PvP" players You will only be getting the opinion/data of a minority.

Monking in PvP is a pain in the neck, though. I fail to see why anyone, not just women, would choose to monk...

*lemming* · Sep 03, 2008, 07:18 PM // 19:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taurucis

Who knows, they might be excellent warriors/dervishes/assassins as well - but perhaps they're even better at Monk/rit/mes or whatevevr. They might have reasons for playing support classes - personal preference, or higher skill, or maybe in rare cases the (male) guild leader forces them into the role.

It usually doesn't work like that. If said hypothetical female warrior didn't want to monk and was good enough, she shouldn't have a problem finding a guild.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taurucis

Not every girl is like that, and the top guilds not allowing girls is sexist.

Usually there is a guy involved in the drama, it's just shrugged off because "boys will be boys." But when the girl retaliates it's "Oh no! She's causing drama! KICK KICK KICK!"

The kind of edrama that girls create is different. As long as there are only males involved, it doesn't get personal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taurucis

TBH, I find that most of the "good" warriors I meet in PvE are women. I think it's because PvE is generally more relaxing, takes less time, and is less stressful. It's less competitive, and women are naturally more on the cooperative side.

Might also have the fact that playing melee in pve has absolutely nothing to do with playing melee in pvp.

Edit: someone's evidently taking offense to my sandwich comment. I can identify four females in the top 50; three of them monk while the fourth plays support midline. Does this evidence say anything?

DarkNecrid · Sep 03, 2008, 07:30 PM // 19:30

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Who knows, they might be excellent warriors/dervishes/assassins as well - but perhaps they're even better at Monk/rit/mes or whatevevr. They might have reasons for playing support classes - personal preference, or higher skill, or maybe in rare cases the (male) guild leader forces them into the role.

Nein. No (good) top guild forces people into roles because if you have to force someone into a role, they usually suck at it. We're talking about what they actually main and play.

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Guys have breasts too, they're just not as obvious. ^^

Mammary glands then.

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Not every girl is like that, and the top guilds not allowing girls is sexist.

A guild is not a job in a country like the U.S.

Guilds are allowed to allow whoever and whatever they want in their guilds.

Are GLBT only guilds being sexual orientation-ist by not allowed straight non-GLBT into their guild? Answer that one carefully. Guilds don't allow certain people not because of what they are (female/straight non-GLBT), but what happens USUALLY when those people join. In this case, drama with females. Not always, but it DOES happen. In the case of GLBT, homophobic and degrading remarks towards their sexual orientation.

Does that make them sexist or terrible people for not wanting that possible trouble to happen in the first place? I wouldn't say so. The guilds that don't allow women are more of a minority anyways, a good deal of them try the woman out to make sure she isn't a drama type. A lot of good women play the game (Three Pounds rocksssss) at the top level and top level guilds.

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Usually there is a guy involved in the drama, it's just shrugged off because "boys will be boys." But when the girl retaliates it's "Oh no! She's causing drama! KICK KICK KICK!"

In my rather specific example, who would you blame? I'm fairly sure it's the girls fault for playing the guy and messing with his emotions. Is it his fault for wanting revenge? Sure. Can you blame him? Not so much.

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Both the male and female population of GW have a role in the sexism present on Guild Wars - the males for their "girls should play support roles,

Absolutely no one in this thread has said that. We have just said that girls in top competitive guilds, PLAY support roles the most. Which is true.

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girls only bring drama,

Absolutely no one in this thread has said that. We have just said that girls USUALLY bring UNWANTED (BIG DIFFERENCE) drama.

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girls are bad at gaming, etc" mentality,

Absolutely no one in this thread has said that either.

No one in this thread is saying anything close to that, nor is that the intentions of any top guilds I can think of who have females in them.

Those who do aren't relevant to what Avarre said at all.

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TBH, I find that most of the "good" warriors I meet in PvE are women. I think it's because PvE is generally more relaxing, takes less time, and is less stressful. It's less competitive, and women are naturally more on the cooperative side.

In PvE, warriors are generally people who sit there and get beat on and tank all the blows instead of doing anything that they should be doing - damage. In PUGs, all the good warriors stand there and get hit and hit and hit. In PvP, warriors lead groups and do damage. So I don't think this is relevant. (mostly because we're talking about competitive top guilds.)

We're talking about competitive guilds. Nothing else. That's all Avarre was talking about. No one has said that women can't play offensive roles, just that they don't in top end PvP. I'm sure there is a lot of women who play tank Warriors who stand there and get beat on to prevent the party from wiping in PvE, but that wasn't what Avarre was talking about at all.

I just don't want this to turn into QQ AVARRE BEING SEXIST cause that isn't what he was saying at all and people are bringing up stuff completely irrelevant to what he said (LIKE PVE).

Taurucis · Sep 03, 2008, 07:42 PM // 19:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

A guild is not a job in a country like the U.S.

Guilds are allowed to allow whoever and whatever they want in their guilds.

Are GLBT only guilds being sexual orientation-ist by not allowed straight non-GLBT into their guild? Answer that one carefully. Guilds don't allow certain people not because of what they are (female/straight non-GLBT), but what happens USUALLY when those people join. In this case, drama with females. Not always, but it DOES happen. In the case of GLBT, homophobic and degrading remarks towards their type.

Some guilds take Guild Wars so seriously that it seems like their guild is their job.

I would believe that the GLBT-only guild are like that because of the homophobia ever so present in Guild Wars. I doubt they want some 12 year old brat to come in and start spouting insults at them.

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Does that make them sexist or terrible people for not wanting that possible trouble to happen in the first place? I wouldn't say so. The guilds that don't allow women are more of a minority anyways, a good deal of them try the woman out to make sure she isn't a drama type. A lot of good women play the game (Three Pounds rocksssss) at the top level and top level guilds.

The thing is that men jump to the conclusion that every girl will bring about drama.

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In my rather specific example, who would you blame? I'm fairly sure it's the girls fault for playing the guy and messing with his emotions. Is it his fault for wanting revenge? Sure. Can you blame him? Not so much.

I would say both of them are to blame - the guy for acting like a jerk or starting the problem, and the girl for expounding on it. It also works in reverse - you can blame the girl for acting like a jerk, and the guy for turning the situation into a huge dramafest.

Absolutely no one in this thread has said that. We have just said that girls in top competitive guilds, PLAY support roles the most. Which is true.
Absolutely no one in this thread has said that, but does it mean that absolutely no one in Guild Wars has said that?

Absolutely no one in this thread has said that. We have just said that girls USUALLY bring UNWANTED (BIG DIFFERENCE) drama.
And guys bring about just as much unwanted drama.
Absolutely no one in this thread has said that either.
But does it mean that absolutely no one in Guild Wars has said that?

I'm not addressing only the guru community - it includes the entire GW community.

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In PvE, warriors are generally people who sit there and get beat on and tank all the blows instead of doing anything that they should be doing - damage. In PUGs, all the good warriors stand there and get hit and hit and hit. In PvP, warriors lead groups and do damage. So I don't think this is relevant. (mostly because we're talking about competitive top guilds.)

It is relevant.

PvE and PvP are both parts of Guild Wars.

I have met female warriors/dervishes who play fully offensive characters, they never offer to set up as tank and I never tell them to play tank. And usually they're mature, friendly people.

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We're talking about competitive guilds. Nothing else. That's all Avarre was talking about. No one has said that women can't play offensive roles, just that they don't in top end PvP. I'm sure there is a lot of women who play tank Warriors who stand there and get beat on to prevent the party from wiping in PvE, but that wasn't what Avarre was talking about at all.

It's not what Avarre was talking about, it's what I'm talking about.

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I just don't want this to turn into QQ AVARRE BEING SEXIST cause that isn't what he was saying at all and people are bringing up stuff completely irrelevant to what he said (LIKE PVE).

Will you stop trying to turn this into a PvP vs PvE flame war? ¬¬

DarkNecrid · Sep 03, 2008, 07:47 PM // 19:47

Quote:

I would believe that the GLBT-only guild are like that because of the homophobia ever so present in Guild Wars. I doubt they want some 12 year old brat to come in and start spouting insults at them.

Guilds that don't allow females are like that because of the female drama ever so present in Guild Wars with them. (seriously, you really should check out the competitive female drama sometime) I doubt they want some 19 year old female to come in and cause drama with one of their core team and cause the guild to shut down/lose good members.

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The thing is that men jump to the conclusion that every girl will bring about drama.

Better safe than sorry.

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And guys bring about just as much unwanted drama.

We're not talking about the same kind of drama.

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It is relevant.

PvE and PvP are both parts of Guild Wars.

Considering this entire thing is about some guy calling Avarre sexist about a competitive side fact that most women in the top guilds play support classes, no, no it isn't relevant.

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It's not what Avarre was talking about, it's what I'm talking about.

But what you're talking about, is what we're talking about and discussing, because of what Avarre & that other guy said!

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Will you stop trying to turn this into a PvP vs PvE flame war? ¬¬

Um...i'm not! Avarre was talking about PvP only. PvE has no place in that because no shit you can say WELL GOOD FEMALE PVE PLAYERS ARE OFFENSIVE, but his point (that he was called SEXIST for.) was that TOP FEMALE PVP PLAYERS MOSTLY PLAY SUPPORT CLASSES.

i give up. this is hella OT anyways and I'm not getting across what I am trying to say very well. Frustrating.

Bryant Again · Sep 03, 2008, 08:34 PM // 20:34

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Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

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Originally Posted by Taurucis

The thing is that men jump to the conclusion that every girl will bring about drama.

Better safe than sorry.

I also want to note that it's not always the men going "women are drama queens who cause all deh drama" and more "well honestly we just can't handle ourselves." One of my guilds in WoW said the former, wanting women out of their guild not because they didn't like chicks but because they actually cared about their well-being.

Can't say much else besides [email protected] Gogogo!

Avarre · Sep 03, 2008, 09:25 PM // 21:25

The above interaction is the kind of thing guilds try to avoid with their restrictions.

Jest aside, you can't really get a proper opinion of this by playing casually and applying armchair psychology. Play in the competitive atmosphere, where it becomes more of a game than a social environment, and tensions cause a lot of problems. It can't really be compared to guild dynamics outside.

Lady Lozza · Sep 04, 2008, 12:44 AM // 00:44

*sigh*

Without knowning the exact cause of the drama it is impossible to tell. The incident someone brought up with the cape was stupid, and the girl deserved a smack.

My experience in competitive PvP (and not just from GW), ie our team was actively seeking to achieve a high ranking - so we had the competitive attitude, we had the tantrums, we had the drama, the people yelling across TS/Vent at on another - the source of the drama was men. Men yelling at other men before rage quitting because they couldn't manage to leave their ego at the door. If someone made a mistake there was yelling, retaliation, the blame game, but in general by the next round the team was over it pulled it together and tried again. The only continuous drama, the forced the team to fall apart earlier than the scheduled finish time was caused by men. Never by the girls, who got yelled at just as often as everyone else for bad playing. We even had one girl in tears on a regular basis, but no game breaking drama from her.

My conclusion from my experience, and the sentiments voiced in this thread, is that in general there are a lot of sexist bastards playing this game. Sorry. I understand the desire to have less drama in a team, and if you can find a group of players who can manage this (regardless of their gender) then good on you. However perpetuating the myth the girls are the heart of all drama, or are bad players, and delibrately keeping them out of top ranking teams because you believe in this stereo-type so strongly impacts on other players to the point where players who would not have made the connection start to, and start to believe it even when experience may say otherwise.

So girls are kept from doing something they might otherwise enjoy, they finish the game, can't go into PvP (or can't go any further in PvP) because no one wants a girl in the team (as many players are emulating the top teams hoping for success) and then quit the game because there is nothing more to do. So much for getting girls into games, and keeping them there.

Girls don't need special treatment. If they are a bad player, kick them if you want. If they are a drama queen, show them the door. Girls in competitive environments (generally) understand this, and those who don't need a smack and a wake up call. But this should apply to all players.

Going by this topic girls are getting the special treatment of getting the door slammed in their face everytime. I'd have thought by now their faces are so messed up they couldn't possibly be pretty than their male counterparts. Now that we aren't competition in terms of look, can we please get a game or two?

stretchs · Sep 04, 2008, 01:01 AM // 01:01

All gw people are 13yo boys until otherwise proven by me. That is the motto I go by, it allows me to 1stly watch my language/manner as well as keep me from saying something that I wouldnt want one of my future children hearing at that age. In the end though, it doesnt matter if the person is male or female. If they can play the game, they can play. I have played pve/pvp on all levels with both guys and girls. Each person is completely different in their way and why they are good at what they do. Each sex and age group has their idiots plain and simple, but lumping all girls, or all teenagers, or all 20+ people have x or y, then all you are doing is throwing around silly stereotypes that have been maintained for far too many years.

Go play the game, stop trying to find reasons to have drama.

Trylo · Sep 04, 2008, 01:09 AM // 01:09

i dont think its an old topic. old denotes that it is no longer relevant, which is not true at all. i know girls who hate looking at "perfect" women in a game, so they make male characters. i do not blame them (this idea is different from men making girl characters... if you havent noticed).

personally, i really enjoy the fact that there are people who want to stand up for girl's gaming. however, you must also realize 3 people who come from similar jobs are going to have similar perspectives. i also must say that i doubt most (any) men reacted to this the way women did. i sent this link to a friend of mine who likes to play video games, and she helped me understand more about the topic. its interesting, none the less.

PS - why linsey and not regina? or was this originally planned for linsey because of her role in the GW industry?

edit:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Lozza

My experience in competitive PvP (and not just from GW), ie our team was actively seeking to achieve a high ranking - so we had the competitive attitude, we had the tantrums, we had the drama, the people yelling across TS/Vent at on another - the source of the drama was men. Men yelling at other men before rage quitting because they couldn't manage to leave their ego at the door. If someone made a mistake there was yelling, retaliation, the blame game, but in general by the next round the team was over it pulled it together and tried again. The only continuous drama, the forced the team to fall apart earlier than the scheduled finish time was caused by men. Never by the girls, who got yelled at just as often as everyone else for bad playing. We even had one girl in tears on a regular basis, but no game breaking drama from her.

(i couldnt really find anywhere to snip it because it was all pretty true).

that happened to our guild, and generally happens in all teams... however i have not seen many groups made with the majority being women (kind of hard to compare). i 'leave my ego at the door' so to speak, and have learned a great deal more than if i tried to play the blame game. after each match i would ask the other monk if i had not done something properly, or did something wrong. if i get advice, its exactly that: advice. people need to accept help, even if it is critical and might seem harsh, it has made me a much better player.

Narcissia · Sep 04, 2008, 02:41 AM // 02:41

funny that people mention girls leaving guilds because of the cape, when i've seen a guy leave a guild because of the cape as well

not everything is one side. both genders are capable of being just as silly as the other.

redstarx · Sep 04, 2008, 04:55 AM // 04:55

LoL...this response totally cracked me up:

—Obviously a lot of work goes into making female characters sexy. Is there any hope for sexy male characters?

Lo: I want to see a nice ass in a game, someday.

That would be pretty interesting to see, haha. I can't really recall any sexy male characters that have caught my attention [I feel another thread coming on]. Girls gaming shouldn't have to be a big issue anymore, but I really can't say because like what those girls said in the panel, I DO hide my gender in any game - I only say so when asked or when my husband mentions it. I dislike any special attention (I don't think myself a lousy player and I'm quite competitive actually...), and I do recall hearing those "omg, we have a lady in the house" comments when I joined a GW vent once. I like being in the boys club and treated just like any other player - it irritates me to no end when I see other girls screaming for help or acting like drama queens...I would love to slap them, really..plus (I know I'm shooting myself in the foot) - I think some of those drama queens are really guys...